GNUe Traffic #43 For 24�Aug�2002

Just remember, don't IRC as root - "www-data joined #gnuenterprise." - "what're you doing logged in as www-data?" - "/me wanted to know what it felt like to be apache so im www-data today - its been rather boring, maybe tomorrow i will be postgres, it should be more fun" - "pah, try being nobody" - "good idea, problem is no one lets me do anything when im nobody"

This Cousin covers the three main mailing lists for the GNU Enterprise project, gnue, gnue-dev and gnue-announce. It also covers the #gnuenterprise IRC channel. A great deal of development discussion for this project goes on in IRC. You can find #gnuenterprise on irc.openprojects.net:6667, or you can review the logs. For more information about the GNU Enterprise project, see their home page at http://www.gnuenterprise.org.

Ryan Grange said that the Supply Chain proposals for GNUe described ordering "parts in for shipment to a customer. What if you want the part vendor to ship them directly to your customer (drop shipment) instead of paying freight twice?" Peter Sullivan said that, as there would presumably be "a mark-up to the cost" , then "the way that I would approach this is to have a virtual "drop shipping" warehouse, and set the business rules so that any goods "received" into this warehouse were immediately "issued" to the end customer at the selling price. This would enable you to calculate your profit/loss on your drop shipping "warehouse" in the same way as for the other, physical, warehouses." This was all a bit theoretical at the moment, however.

John Marciano reported some problems when he "ran the setup.py script in each directory" but got an error message for Forms. Derek Neighbors said that the "New preferred way to install cvs is to run setup-cvs.py in the root directory of cvs and answer the questions. You will need to have wxWindows, mxDateTime, Python2.x installed. Also to do database applications you need a database and the proper python db driver for that database."

Also, for GEAS, John got a message "Please don't try to compile this program, it is obsolete and not maintained any more - Again this doesn't sound good." . Derek explained "geas (the old appserver) is still in cvs because you cant really remove things from cvs (or in this case we didnt want to) we wanted to leave for reference. We changed the script so others wouldnt waste time compiling it. The new application server is in 'appserver' directory."

John also asked "is anyone using this system in a manufacturing/production environment?" . Derek said "We are getting ready to roll solutions for two or more small manufacturing / production shops in the next 6 months." .

Jeff Childers volunteered "to start fleshing out the SupplyChain.pdf document" . He had "lots of detailed ERP product experience (from coding to implementation) and tons of opinions :)." Neil Tiffin said he had "been in charge, but am currently under water with my job" so "If you want to start a dialog I would be more than happy to help." Ross Sponholtz volunteered to "help out" as well.

Derek Neighbors said "Yes we woudl love it, the source of that pdf is in cvs and is actually in docbook (xml)." Jeff suggested "Unless anyone has an objection, I think I would like to use a light UML style to organize the requirements. That is, define the modules in terms of objects ('actors' or whatever) with their properties, events and methods." Neil said he was not opposed to UML, but "I do believe that we will need a business persons view (prose functionality) of the system design" as well. Derek agreed - "I would like to see proposals in a narrative form and following the module guide template (it is of course open to enhancements). I have no problem including UML along with that, but not as a substitute to it. This is pretty much because not everyone knows UML or has tools to deal with it, plus forcing to discuss in narrative clarifies alot." Jeff agreed, and asked where to find the module guide template. He asked "What application do you guys use to read/edit the XML DocBook files?" He had tried googling, but this just found the DocBook specifications, not tools to open it.

Earlier, Neil said that "The main stuff that should be kept or should be built on is in the Base Package." Previously, the documentation had been "built directly from the object definition and it was not possible for the system design, documentation, and objects to be different." However, nobody else seemed to think this was "a big deal and so no need to keep at this point." However, he warned "that the work load will only get more onerous as the system grows and some organization and automation now, while not entirely necessary, will pay hugely in the near future."

Todd Boyle felt that "the "UN/CEFACT Modeling Methodology" (UMM)" , might form a good structure for writing GNUe package proposals. "It is "stackism"" , with "a business process layer" , "a collaboration layer" and "a transaction layer of course." . These abstract models were now being turned into "the state machine that defines a BSI, a business service interface" to keep the home systems of both/all parties to an interfaced transaction in sync - "That is the whole entier point of business process software, that some unambiguous business entity agreed in a contract, has proceeded from one state, to the next state or to an exception condition. etc." Using UMM, whilst a bit prescriptive, would involve GNUe "in the middle of a larger community, one that is very clueful and has huge history and experience, and is throwing off not only a lot of modeling but pretty specific code objects now, and... you don't have to write documentation :-)" .

Elsewhere, Alejandro Imass said he was "still around if you need any help with the original Supply Chain Specs that I originally wrote and submitted to GNUE a long time ago." He personally used "emacs + psgml major mode" to write DocBook - "It is by far THE BEST SGML TOOL IN THE WORLD!" . Neil explained to Jeff that "Alejandro was one of the original contributors to the specs and while we did not get far enough to include all of this product structures he had some very good ideas that were captured in early emails." He hoped "Hopefully with the next version we can actually build a system." Jeff replied to Alejandro "If emacs'll run on my Windows XP box then by george I'll try it." On Supply Chain, "If you have any notes or ideas that are still hanging around, even if they aren't pretty or finished, send them along and I'll review them for the next iteration. Let's knock the narrative out and then we'll take up the flag again for a beautiful UML model :)" . Alejandro said that "All sgml tools work like a breeze in Debian" but "In Windoze I would bet it is much harder to get free ``libre'' (GPL) sgml tools up and running, but I am sure someone out there has tried and can help you." He felt that using a word-processor tool like OpenOffice was not really ideal for "really large documentation projects" like GNUe.

Further to Issue�#42, Section�#11� (12�Aug�2002:�GNUe at Linux World Expo) , James Thompson (jamest) asked "so hows the show this year? more/less people - more/less interest" ? Derek said "WAY more people - similar percent interest - we have a book deal i think if we want it" . He had been unable to get the demos working fully "so i show VERY cripled functionality :( - but the marketing slicks are MUCH improved - so that helps compensate" . He had gone back to the 0.3.0 official releases rather than CVS for stability - "the cvs demo doesnt work for designer - m/d is dorked bad in both" . James noted that master-detail "works perfectly at work" using the "cvs copy" of the code.

The next day, Dan Bethe (dtm) said he had given Derek a lift back to the airport - "i only got to lwce in time to pack up the GNUe booth! and to fend off the herds of mad forklifts!" However, he had had a chance to see "gnue for the first time ever!"

Further to Issue�#42, Section�#11� (12�Aug�2002:�GNUe at Linux World Expo) , James Thompson (jamest) asked "does the name lbergman ring any bells? they submitted our project to the linux fund" . Later, Peter Sullivan (psu) asked "can someone explain the lburkman joke/reference to me? I thought it was just me, but jamest doesn't grok it either" . "Nor do I" , said Jason Cater (jcater) - "I wonder if he signed GNUe up for a grant, or if he signed up for a grant using the GNUe banner? there could be a difference :) if it's the first, I'd like to shake his hand - if it's the second, I'd like to know why - if it's the third, then someone must be confused because I only gave 2 reasons" . Peter said "the way dneighbo was talking it was like it was a known alias - or the name of a prominant GNUe/free sw hater ;-)" Jason thought there was no such thing as a GNUe-hater - "we're so huggable and luvable" . James added "we never met a goat we didn't like" . Peter said he had "even checked to see if it was a name on any of our screenshots, but no - unless it is the name of the ship on the Navigator screen - USS lburkman" .

Peter Sullivan said that, just in the same way that "the export, i.e. database -> XML, bit" of GNUe Integrator was shared functionality with GNUe Reports, "The work that Jason and Jan have been doing on the on the schema import wizard" which "will now include data as well as just schema" , as discussed in Issue�#37, Section�#14� (9�Jul�2002:�Including data in GNUe Application Server schema definitions) , could form the basis of "the other half (import, i.e. XML -> database) of GNUe Integrator, or at least a major building block for it" . Derek Neighbors agreed - "the biggest thing that is missing is the data transformation on the fly stuff. (i.e. Integrator Triggers) and of course a nice UI to go along with it. I think much of Integrator will become basically reuse of other core code in different ways within Desinger." .

In response to a private e-mail, Derek Neighbors said that "Grid is implemented to day in xPlatform way simply add rows="3" where 3 represents number of rows in grid to display and you have a grid. Papo team is submitting scrollbar patch for it. Some day there will be more traditional eye candy grid, though functionaly its not necessary." Pop-up forms were already implemented, and "we have some search forms planned as well" .

James Thompson (jamest) said that the GNU Enterprise main web server, as referred to in Issue�#41, Section�#1� (31�Jul�2002:�Problems with GNU Enterprise website) , was "up and I was hoping we'd just go to the new site instead of the old one" . Derek Neighbors (dneighbo) asked "is dcl back" ? James said "nope - mail, apache/php, firewall, user accounts - that's all - lots more to do" . Peter Sullivan (psu) said he had "been working locally on the new site whilst ash was away - but not testing as I don;t have Apache/PHP here" - but "with a few hours effort this weekend we could probably cut over say Sunday to something that is more up to date than current site - and we can then add the final flourishes (e.g. polls, if we still want them) over next few weeks" , suggesting "Maybe we should have a poll on whether to have polls" .

Daniel Prather (MysticOne) asked "what all *does* GNUe do? Right now is it primarily just a contact database?" Daniel Baumann (chillywilly) said it was an "ERP framework - we have forms client, rad designer, navigator, commmon module, etc. appserver too of course - /me is trying to think if he forgot something" . Andrew Mitchell (ajmitch) added "dcl, bayonne :)" which Daniel Baumann explained: "dcl is a project management app that is under the gnue umbrella and bayonne is the gnu telephony server which is affiliated with gnue too - also in the works is an accounting system using forms (adapted from Nola)" . Jason Cater (jcater) added "also a Rental Management app" .

Daniel Prather asked about point of sale systems. Daniel Baumann, remembering Issue�#42, Section�#5� (10�Aug�2002:�Point-of-Sale systems for GNUe) , said that gibbon was looking to work with GNUe. Jason said that he was "working on point of sale as we speak - as I open up a used book store in 6 weeks - and seeing as how I'm a core GNUe developer, I'm morally obligated to using GNUe :)" . He added "not to point you in another direction, but I looked at bananahead POS and it looked pretty darn feature complete - /me didn't actually test it, though" , adding "of course, I encourage you to use us :) - but if you are needing something immediately, there's a lead" .

Continuing previous discussions in Issue�#27, Section�#14� (28�Apr�2002:�GNUe as a Rapid Business Applications Development toolkit) , Dan Bethe (dtm) asked why the GNUe core developers seemed to feel "that gnue's application framework is not appropriately generalizable toward groupware" ? "or is it that the gnue team isn't interested in doing so? what if outsiders were to be made interested? are the models that drastically different between a groupware and a transactional enterprise framework?" He explained "the existing hotbed of groupware that's got all the development happening, is in the LAMP space" (using Linux, Apache, mySQL and PHP) - "and there's nothing wrong with all that but it's just that the LAMP space tends to be infested with junior, "not invented here" programming demo style coders" - "so they need an app building framework which is as easy as gnue - gnue is easy at building specific kinds of apps - and if it was more fully web enabled (liek with a php or sashxb style presentation driver) and if it had groupware components, then someone could use it as a groupware RAD - then we add the ancillary components such as device drivers, palm sync, and external bridges to WAP or other messaging and formatting, and b3wm - no more phpgropuware" .

Later, he asked "does gnue have any degree of collaborative infrastructure? or is it just a concurrently-usable multiple-individual transaction oriented infrastructure?" Daniel Baumann (chillywilly) said that was what GNUe Common was for - it "has the db absatraction, the rpc abstraction, and other code fr writing apps (both server and client)" such as "the debug system" , "the xml parser, trigger stuff, the connections code for linking a form up to a db, the commn object model, format masks, lots of *stuff* - appserver uses mainly the db and rpc *stuff*" .

Two days later, towards the end of a all night long, off-topic, discussion, Dan said that the GNUe team "have to not downplay web services :>" . Daniel said "we don't - the have abstraction layer fr most web service protocols - xmlrcp, soap, etc." and "appserver should talk to anything by exposing "web services"" . Dan accepted that "you often want super fast data entry in a local binary app" but "you should have web access later" . Daniel mentioned the php Forms client written by Jan Ischebeck. Dan asked "what about generalizing" GNUe "as a general web app platform or collaborative platform/" - he said that Michael Dean (mdean) "had been waving around about that long ago - but when i talked with derek after lwce, he said that gnue has a fundmanetally different model (transactoinal oriented or whatever) - and is not optimized for that directly, fwiw" . He did not see any real difference, however. Daniel said "you "submit" the form - you "commit" a transaction - same frelling thing ;)" .

Dan asked "is there any reason why we can't make a *generalized* RAD out of gnue instead of just for database oriented forms? - i mean you have a drag-n-drop UI for forms and db stuff... why can't those widgets be, say, user-oriented or task-oriented or schedule-oriented?" He realised that GNUe Designer was a type of RAD tool, "but only for a specific type of app as opposed to, say, designing a calendar" . Daniel said that "the appserver will provide objects eventually - that is very generic - and you don't have to be a db guru then - just an object lackey" . GNUe Application Server "still needs to use a db to store" its objects, "but I think objects give you the generic thing that you desire" .

Dan asked "are there any alternative RADs which already exist (like zope or whatever) which are compatible with gnue so we could get started building groupware on your current gnue shizzit?" Daniel knew of Zope, but had never used it - "we have so much code and time invested in our framework - I dunno who has the time to adapt to an existing one - or if it would ever make sense to throw away our stuff rather than picking some existing appserver" . Dan said that "phpgroupware is state of the art as far as free groupware, but it's not state of the art in terms of app services" - it "would suck a lot less if groupware developers were magically granted a kick ass framework to start with" Daniel said that there had been discussions with the phpGW team - they "do not wish to invest time into gnue integration" - this had been one of the reasons that Michael Dean had affiliated DCL with GNUE rather than phpGW. Dan Bethe said that Dan Kuykendall (seek3r) "has slightly reopened somewhat to the idea of moving toward gnue's direction, one way or another - but still! that's a bit of a leap" .

He felt that free groupware needed "major app frameworks" that were FSF-compatible, and hence not based on Java - "the only FSF-compatible alternative to the excellent enterprise quality stuff that's being done in java today, is in LAMP - which is strong but is not ubiquitous enough - for example it's web-only" , which could prove unsuitable for tasks "like mass data entry" . GNUe could provide an alternative, fully free, application framework for groupware development. He asked if "stuff like j2ee be made to sit atop gnue? or only interoperate via message passing like soap/xmlrpc" ? Daniel said "I think all our components/servers will be web enabled and export remote interfaces" .

Dan said that using GNUe as an alternative to phpGW for groupware development "can't be all that hard on the surface assuming the guts are ready - assuming that you support groupware-like data structures - and then simply export it to the web via a standard gnue web output, like maybe a php display driver similar to the current wxwindows stuff" .

Jeff Childers asked "Has any kind of data dictionary or data structures definition been started yet? If not, I have a concept that I've been using over the last couple years in our development that seems to really shorten development time." Properties/fields of objects/tables were defined as either "Primary key" , "Surrogate key" , "Local value" or "Composite value" . This allowed you to "add default logic to your base classes for data entry controls that determine behavior when the control is created on a form depending on the data type." For instance, primary keys would be "Never shown" , whilst surrogate keys would automatically "Implement lookup logic when in edit mode via right click menu or create a small lookup button next to field on init etc)." This had several benefits for control and maintanance, in particular "Adding controls to forms requires only to set the field ID to enable the majority of functionality that you typically want" - "the control will self-select the appropriate widget." Derek Neighbors said "You are describing relevant stuff to AppServer, however, currently I havent been doing a lot of work in that area. I think we need to get AppServer farther along before we can get too into these discussions."

Earlier, Todd Boyle felt that "any data dictionary should be based on ebXML" and gave the "One sentence elevator pitch: GNUE is not the only application in the enterprise, and will need to exchange information with a huge variety of heterogenous applications and platforms" whether "During the implementation/migration phase at the very least" or as a permanant interface. He gave some web links for "The ebXML RegRep specifications" , "Open source RegRep project" and "The ebXML core component specification" . Whilst he appreciated that "a product-specific data dictionary gives you ease of use, and immediate payoff and reinforces your own community" , he felt that using ebXML within GNUe could help bring forward "the day when individuals and small businesses can conduct exchanges with each other (as well as large enterprises)" . EDI had not worked for these groups. "If GNUE doesn't help get us away from paper invoices, printing and mailing checks, etc. I'm gonna scream," .

Christopher Brown felt "No, this puts the cart before the horse" - not all data would need to be interoperable, and "There _will_ be data on the system that under NO circumstances should be released externally, such as security configuration and personal information (as is found in payroll)." He felt that "The point _isn't_ about abstract XML schema; it's about the concrete question of what DBMS tables are on THIS system, and how do they link to the INTERNAL functionality of GnuE, to forms, business rules, and such." .

Jeff looked over Todd's links, and said "Personally, I am 100% in favor of building an open-standards platform to drive e-transactions. I share your frustration with the inefficiency of what is largely a 1,000-year-old process" and agreed that EDI was not the answer. However, he urged caution - "One does wonder, though, with all the new acronyms these days, just how many standards one project can support." Derek Neighbors said that GNUe supported "many standards now. Most of our project is in XML. We support nearly any SQL92 compliant database etc, etc." He emphasised "we will store the data we need. The software is GPL and certainly with Integrator and our other tools you can get data pumped out in about any format you want to interoperate with others. Whether it be ebXML or EDI or you name it." Jeff agreed - "GPL is as open as it gets. Anyone motivated enough can add a data filter for whatever standard is required for whichever industry."

Further to Issue�#42, Section�#4� (10�Aug�2002:�GNUe at open source e-Government conference) , Stan Klein (sklein) reported that he had "put in the speaking proposals for the DC conference on "open source and e-government"" . He noted "Even if we don't get selected to speak, we should submit material for the "conference handbook" I figure there are about 32 speaking slots (2 sessions each morning and afternoon, 2 days, 4 speakers each session)" . The conference organisers would "send out notifications of acceptance by Friday, and we have about a month to get in any material we want to submit" .

Matt Raykowski (sfb-) asked "how GNUe compares to Compiere." Peter Sullivan (psu) said that "the big issue for people here is that Compiere, although free (as in freedom) itself has non-free dependancies such as Java and (the biggie) Oracle DB s/w i.e. unless you have sold your soul to Oracle for a database, it's just a kool but inert lump of code - GNUe is designed to have no non-free depends at all i.e. you can use GNUe w/Oracle - but you can also use with MySQL, Freebird, postgresql, SAB-DB etc" . Matt noted that "they're making progress on PG support though." . Peter said "at moment, we have tools (very good tools) for building apps - especially in 2 tier mode (i.e. forms talks direct to database) - but are a bit short on apps themselves as frankly we really want our appserver working i.e. would like our official apps to be 3-tier from start" .

Later, Derek Neighbors (deke) said that Compiere had a "qeustionable license" - the Mozilla Public License - which "does not protect developers" . GNUe was intended to be a full enterprise resource planning package "like SAP R/3, PeopleSoft and the likes" .

Matt Raykowski (sfb-) asked "are the forms also stored in the appserver and pushed to the client?" Peter Sullivan (psu) said "the forms at the moment contain all the biz logic" but "forms can read forms definitions from an URL so no big deal" - "once we have appserver working well (there's already a proof of concept version) then the biz logic sits there" . He explained "geas == old app server, discontinued - app server = new app server, early in development - but not everyone is always 100% consistant on terms" . He suggested "trout beatings" for people who got it wrong.

Derek said "on the application side we are not far along at all - we havent put the focus there - in short if you want to author an HRMS system gnue could do that today - if you want to download and 'run' an HRMS system with minimal effort we can not do that today" . However, "we are strongly encouraging interested parties in helping make the applications - so we can continue to grow the tools" .

Matt Raykowski (sfb-) said "rumor has it you're also working with integration with bayonne?" Hans Kugler (LuftHans) said that "Rich of Bayonne was at the GNUe booth at LWE last week." Peter Sullivan (psu) said that "In theory, bayonne should be able to use excatly same form defs as full client" , although in practice phone-based "forms" would need to be simpler.

Hans Kugler (LuftHans) asked "what's wPython.wx and what debian package(s) would hold it?" Jason Cater (jcater) suggested "libwxgtk2.2-python" . Hans said "hmm, looks like I've got the wxPython modules installed, but gfdes still dies. Do I need to reconfigure something? rebuild gfdes?" Daniel Baumann (chillywilly) suggested checking the version of python on the default path. Derek Neighbors (deke) said that "likely wx is either not installed or installed incorrectly on this machine - we see it all the time on red hat where people have 1.5.2 and 2.1 or 2.1 and 2.2 installed and install wx but install it for a python other than the default" . You could fix this by running setup-cvs.py from a specific version of python - "python2.1 setup-cvs.py - instead of ./setup-cvs.py" .

Hans asked "which util registers the db connections in connections.conf?" Peter Sullivan (psu) said "vi or emacs ;-) - seriously, I believe it is just a text file." Hans had some problems setting up a connection for a mySQL database. Later, Derek Neighbors (deke) explained "connections.conf gets reloaded when you run apps" . He could not see any problems with Hans's setup "but i warn you i dont do mysql so im not much help there - try making the name all lower case" - "iirc i had problems with this before - fixed it then someone re broked it" .

John Lenton (Chipaca) asked "is there any reason the names of datasources, pages, forms and blocks invade the root namespace?" He added "it feels ugly, and it breaks things. is there any reason for it?" For example, "I can't have a form called the same as a datasource" and "you can actually name a form in such a way that it conflicts with something inside gnue - having one entry point would be cleaner, no?" Jason Cater (jcater) said "not in our minds - we have a progressing namespace - as you move up the tree siblings, etc appear in your namespace. I admit we don't have all the error checking in place we need - but this progressive namespace was a feature i.e., a design decision not a bug" . John said "we guessed as much" but "we fail to see the usefulness of it, and we have several times stumbled over it in dismay - perhaps we fail to see something you could explain better?"

Michael Goebel reported "that GNUe works on my Suse 7.1 distribution with kernel 2.4.0. I tried both version 0.3.0 and the latest cvs snapshot" . He said "the effort was well worth it. After the installation was complete (two days), I looked for about half an hour so at the form samples. After that I had written my first functional database form in less than 10 minutes. And it worked !! I already wonder what I will be able to do once I have actually read the documentation :)" . He outlined in detail the steps he had needed to install GNUe, which (in summary) were:

I already had a running PostGresql 7.2.1, downloaded from postgresql.org,

enabled

for accepting TCP/IP connections

He used Yast, the Suse installer, to install the relevant python packages.

He downloaded and installed

mxDateTime.py from egenix

He installed

PyGreSQL (Postgres client interface for Python)

, resolving some problems with

Making postgres with "configure --with-python"

To install wxPython he

had to experiment for a while

but eventually got it to work.

He downloaded the GNUe tarball from the website and configured this.

That's it -> test it by running the forms in the sample directory. If in GUI trouble, try passing "--debuglevel=10" as a parameter to gnue-forms. If in database trouble, also take a look at the postgres logfile.

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Kernel Traffic Latest�\|�Archives�\|�People�\|�Topics	Wine Latest�\|�Archives�\|�People�\|�Topics	GNUe Latest�\|�Archives�\|�People�\|�Topics
Czech

1.	10�Aug�2002�-�15�Aug�2002	(2 posts)	Drop shipments in Supply Chain Management
2.	15�Aug�2002�-�16�Aug�2002	(2 posts)	Installing GNUe from CVS
3.	15�Aug�2002�-�21�Aug�2002	(17 posts)	Specification for Supply Chain Management (SCM)
4.	14�Aug�2002�-�15�Aug�2002		GNUe at Linux World Expo
5.	14�Aug�2002		The mysterious lburkman
6.	16�Aug�2002�-�19�Aug�2002	(2 posts)	Integrator and schema import wizard
7.	16�Aug�2002	(1 post)	Functionality of GNUe Forms
8.	15�Aug�2002		New GNU Enterprise website
9.	15�Aug�2002		Point of Sale (POS) systems
10.	15�Aug�2002�-�17�Aug�2002		Using GNUe Application Server with php Groupware
11.	18�Aug�2002�-�20�Aug�2002	(9 posts)	GNUe data dictionary and open standards
12.	18�Aug�2002		GNUe at open source e-Government conference
13.	19�Aug�2002		GNUe as a fully free alternative to Compiere
14.	19�Aug�2002		GNUe packages and architecture
15.	19�Aug�2002		GNUe and Bayonne
16.	19�Aug�2002		Installing the dependancies for GNUe
17.	19�Aug�2002		GNUe Namespace issues
18.	20�Aug�2002	(1 post)	Installing GNUe on Suse GNU/Linux

GNUe Traffic #43 For 24�Aug�2002

By Peter Sullivan